Published: Aug. 3, 2023

Stefani H  0:06  
Welcome to another episode of Creative Distillation. Your hosts Jeff and Brad from the University of Colorado Boulder is Leeds School of Business discuss entrepreneurship research while enjoying fine craft beverages. Here we are, our LA roadtrip finale! We finished with two strong guests. Lauren Kaufmann, Associate Professor of Business Administration at Virginia's Darden School of Business. And Lisa Hehenburger Associate Professor in the Department of Strategy and General Management at Esade Business School and Director of its Center for Social Impact. Diana Hechevarria, Associate Professor of Management at Texas Tech returns to join the discussion and solidify her place as honorary guest host of Creative Distillation. They talk about the challenges and pitfalls of social impact measurement and investing the importance of not just identifying a problem, but taking action to solve it, and their final takeaways from this year's conference. Enjoy and cheers!

Jeff York  1:12  
Welcome to Creative this deletion where we distill entrepreneurship research into actionable insights. My name is Jeff York, and I'm the Research Director at the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship at the Leeds School of Business at the University of Colorado Boulder, but I'm still not there.

Brad  1:27  
I just love hanging back and listening to your intro.

Jeff York  1:29  
I'm sure you did.

Brad  1:31  
It allows me to take like two or three steps in my dream Joining

Jeff York  1:34  
me to talk about all my titles. Enjoy that. One, pick one title. I am the chair of the department for social responsibility and sustainability at the Leeds School of Business at the University of Colorado Boulder.

Brad  1:48  
All right. I love a tie. Brad Warner as you know, titleholders badass, you know, Jeff, I'm an entrepreneur. Yeah,

Jeff York  1:56  
I've heard Yeah. So you're also the teaching director.

Brad  1:59  
I am. I am the Faculty Director for Academic Center. We are nowhere near we are nowhere near we're lovin LA,

Jeff York  2:06  
actually, at the grief center, I believe is the name for entrepreneurship at the University of Southern California, USC at the Marshall School of Business, and we're

Brad  2:14  
actually on a patio overlooking Los Angeles. And there

Jeff York  2:18  
are no no rodents or vermin of any kind do rats. beautiful building. And oh my god, we had such an awesome panel of guests. Yeah, we have we actually, I think our first guest will now become our second most frequent guest twice. So let's go with you first.

Diana Hechevarria  2:38  
So I got to introduce myself. Yes, please. Associate Professor of Management in the Rawls College of Business at Texas Tech University recom.

Jeff York  2:50  
Alright, let's go introduce our next guest.

Lauren Kaufmann  2:53  
Hello, everyone. I'm Lauren Kaufmann. I'm an Assistant Professor of Business Administration at the Darden School of Business at the University of Virginia. It

Jeff York  3:01  
is absolutely the university. PARSONS University as I like to refer to it, boy guest.

Lisa Heehenburger  3:09  
So my name is Lisa Heehenburger and I'm an associate professor in the Department of strategy and general management of the Isata Business School.

Jeff York  3:18  
Awesome. Thank you all for joining us. I guess we realized everyone was leaving the reception and trying to go have a nice evening and maybe dinner and he said, No, let's grab these people and come out for them some more beverages, so we have a wide selection of fine things for you if you wish. These are really good beers from hops St. Lovely brewery down in Torrance, our new favorite California brewery, IPA chocolate trip. We don't know what that is, but I'm going to drink it next. At some point we have pure intention of pale ale. We have an amazing Oktoberfest as well as a Mexican lager. If you're feeling bold, however, we also have cut water rum, also known as three sheets from a room from San Diego, which you can mix well you can just drink it straight up if you want. I mean, we're not here to stop you. And we also have red cola you can mix it with so a kind of weird Californian rum and coke. This is from real soda and amazing soda company down in Torrance. So we also talked to actually they're not in Taurus, they're in LA. Yeah, where Gardena, Gardena one of the many, many parts of LA and then if you really want to take things to a whole different level, you can mix cup water rum with brainwashed, brainwashed and go

Lisa Heehenburger  4:27  
with the IPA

Jeff York  4:28  
Okay, so Lisa, you live

Diana Hechevarria  4:30  
in Spain but of Spain,

Lisa Heehenburger  4:34  

Diana Hechevarria  4:36  

Jeff York  4:39  
Oh my god.

Brad  4:41  
We had a guest from Barcelona on four episodes ago. Yeah.

Jeff York  4:47  
Fantastic. What would you like?

Lauren Kaufmann  4:51  
I will stick with my glass of Pinot Noir and

Jeff York  4:53  
you Dad whiskey. All right. So everybody has a beverage everybody's happy Why wanted to do was like a little roundtable? Well, we talked you last night data about your research. So we won't we won't go there. I mean, you could talk about if you want to hear about my new friend? Well, exactly. That's what I want to hear about. You are a keynote speaker here, very much enjoyed your talk. And I was like, man, I've got to get that person here. Because you were talking about impact and actually doing research with impact. Do you want to talk about one of your recent papers where you've done that? Or do you want to just talk more broadly about that approach? Totally up to you, what would you like to speak about?

Lisa Heehenburger  5:26  
So I'm thinking about recent papers, like I just published something in the Journal of Business Ethics, but it was more like an editorial piece where I'm like, mapping out, you know, what is impact investing? So that's kind of what I'm working on. Cool.

Brad  5:39  
I love that. But yeah, I

Lisa Heehenburger  5:41  
mean, I think my talk was more about how do you integrate sort of the field of practice in academia? Right. And it's something that I've been struggling with, you know, for the past few years. And I think it's something that academics, you know, have a bit of a trouble, you know, doing because they think that we want to do academic research, we want to stay kind of away from the field of practice, because we don't want to interfere.

Brad  6:09  
I want you to interfere. And by the way, the world is struggling with impact investing. Right. So it's not just the academic community.

Lisa Heehenburger  6:16  
Yeah, no, definitely. Yeah.

Brad  6:18  
And I think about Milton Friedman, and what he said in 1975, about the role of a firm and how society has evolved since then, I think it's actually fascinating.

Lisa Heehenburger  6:29  
So what does Milton Friedman have to do with with impact investing? Nothing?

Brad  6:34  
has everything to do with it, in the fact that he said, Okay, so he said that the only role that the firm has, is to create shareholder returns, period. Has nothing to do. No, but I'm looking at how the evolution of businesses has happened in the last 40 years, I think, is actually incredible, because I believe that firms will, this is before the impacting investment, but firms that don't take into consideration impact. They're gonna go out of business. Okay. Right. So there's the link.

Diana Hechevarria  7:04  
Okay. Okay. I'm sorry, I got really defensive because I'm like,

Brad  7:08  
you're fine. No, no, I want you to challenge me, because but there is there's actually a method to the madness, right? Because bottom line is, it's about governance. It's about what firms are thinking. And then it's about

Lisa Heehenburger  7:19  
No, I mean, I'm so glad that you brought up governance. One of the things that I have been working on is about, you know, how do you actually integrate impact into governance, right? How do you make sure that, you know, decision making integrates impact? And do you have like, external governance systems? To make sure that that's happening? It sounds kind of really boring.

Brad  7:44  
got boring, and it's important, but

Lisa Heehenburger  7:46  
I think it's super important. Yeah.

Brad  7:49  
Right. And we've had this conversation, a creative distillation many times about how do you measure your impact, though? And what does that actually mean?

Lisa Heehenburger  7:57  
Yeah, so that's kind of one of the other things that I'm working on, you know, I published a paper. Well, it's actually not an academic paper, but it's more like a practitioner sort of report called A Practical Guide to measuring and managing impact. And I was published in 2012. And it's my second most cited paper in academia. But so like, it's not an academic paper.

Brad  8:23  
Yeah, it's an

Lisa Heehenburger  8:23  
editorial, which is kind of No, no, it's, it's a practitioner. Oh, I see. It's like a white paper. Exactly. Yeah. Let's read that actually.

Diana Hechevarria  8:31  
Well, isn't it fascinating. That's the most cited and it's not an academic journal. Well, sure. That shows that like, the bells should be ringing

Jeff York  8:40  
the bell? Oh, I'm sorry. That you mean? Why should we

Diana Hechevarria  8:49  
do that one more time. This is your most cited paper. Second most site. Okay. Second most cited, because actionable insight.

Jeff York  9:00  
What is the actual event site that you are so excited about?

Diana Hechevarria  9:04  
This is the most cited paper and it's a white paper industry is actually interested in so is academia. Right? So there's something to take away from this. And this is, I think, a problem with publishing as academics just like, experience on things that are good ideas, because we like gatekeepers. And when you see this, that like to me is like, oh my gosh, like, how can I support this more and like, bring this more to the forefront? So tell me more about it.

Lisa Heehenburger  9:29  
Oh, okay. I think it was something that was needed at the time. And I you know, it's it's evolved since then. But it was translated to like 10 different languages. So for example, I got a message from, you know, someone in China saying that okay, this has been translated Chinese, you know, can you have a look at the report and I'm like, I looked at it and make it looks great.

Lauren Kaufmann  10:01  
Looking good?

Lisa Heehenburger  10:02  
Yeah. Lots of citations there.

Jeff York  10:06  
Absolutely. Well, so So Laura, now tell us a little bit about what you're working on. Because I thought I was like, I'm just waiting for you. And he started talking about Milton Friedman. But

Brad  10:17  
yeah, absolutely. There was there was a reason for that I don't understand.

Lauren Kaufmann  10:23  
Well, Brad, Yeah, Brad. Yes, Brad, I do have to say that the correct quote from Milton Friedman, is that it was the only social responsibility of business is to maximize shareholder value, right? Why did Milton Friedman think this? Well, he had very specific theory about the role of efficiency, and markets and how this would serve social good by connecting consumers to the products and services they need. But what we've learned in the meantime, is that there are market failures, and that not all information is included in prices. And so maximizing shareholder value might not actually maximize social impact. That's

Brad  10:59  
right. And, yeah, I love that, because of economic theory thinks that we have all the information and then we make all these rational decision rights. I mean, it's amazing.

Jeff York  11:11  
So So it's interesting, like, so here we are at the social entrepreneurship Research Conference. And I see all these things about corporate social responsibility, and it almost like gets more discussion. To my view anyway, in the popular press, and social entrepreneurship does these days, everybody's like, Oh, look, we're going to stakeholder capitalism. And we have all these reports. And, and I just, I'm, I'm so skeptical about that I just, I do not see corporations rapidly evolving away from their current practices, I see them spending lots and lots and lots of money to look like they are doing things to evolve away from their practices. But I really think entrepreneurs are going to play a big part in replacing this socially and environmentally destructive services and products and evolving them towards something that's a little more sustainable. I don't know. I mean, that's why I think anyway, but what do y'all the do you see the same thing? Or do you think corporations really are going to, like, evolve in this way? Because? Well,

Lisa Heehenburger  12:09  
I think it's kind of normal, that corporations are getting a lot of press because they have a lot of money. Sure. So they have money for PR, and you know, they're able to be in the press, or social enterprises don't have that, that sort of, you know, resources. And then the other thing is, like, what I'm seeing with big corporations is that, you know, when they think about their own impact, they focus on like, very specific projects, right? You know, so they, for example, I mean, I'm not going to say the name. Let's say that it was a sort of a kind of large company that contacted me to do an impact measurement study. And then I said, So what do you want to study? You know, and I said, Okay, we're doing this wonderful project where, you know, we're distributing food to people who don't have food, and we you will, we want you to measure the impact of that. And I said, Okay, well, that's great. But, you know, what is your overarching impact? You know, what is the impact of your entire company? And I mean, that's actually more interesting than just that very small philanthropic project that you're doing. Ask

Diana Hechevarria  13:16  
a question. Yeah. So what I want to ask is, Is this one of one of one like an n of one? Or have you had many other companies kind of had this because I feel like, in my experience, I haven't interface a lot with companies like this. And when you hear the story, this makes me concerned that oh, yeah, that companies are like thinking like, Oh, I'm just gonna talk, the talk and fake walk, the walk is this, like, just one experience, or this is one of you that makes you concerned?

Lisa Heehenburger  13:48  
So, I mean, this was a specific experience, which, you know, actually, what happened, though, was that I told them that, you know, they need to measure their impact as a company, not just that for that specific project. And then I saw on LinkedIn, they started, like, recruiting social impact measurement people, and they then had like, a whole social impact team, you know, after a few months, so I mean, they were actually doing some good stuff. And I think a lot of companies are starting to take this seriously. So they're moving from kind of just corporate social responsibility, which is stung by like, their PR branch, you know, which is more like,

Diana Hechevarria  14:27  
I know, looking good kind of thing and talking about walking the walk. Right. Yeah.

Lisa Heehenburger  14:31  
I mean, to actually do some real stuff.

Brad  14:33  
Why do you think they're taking it more seriously, though?

Lisa Heehenburger  14:35  
I mean, for various reasons. One could be that their consumers are asking for that. It could also be regulation. I mean, in Europe, we have now quite strong regulation on you know, environmental aspects. So I mean, obviously, like, that's part of it, but I also do think that you know, some companies are really taking it seriously, like not everyone but a few of them. Yeah,

Diana Hechevarria  14:57  
this makes me happy though, because I've You're like in America we're not as serious so when I hear in Europe people are taking it serious I'm gonna call knowledge spillover please come regulations lag behind me yes indeed very far the Free State of Florida find out how to say May we learned many things, colonisers?

Jeff York  15:27  
Well, on that note, Laura

Brad  15:31  
that's a perfect segue.

Jeff York  15:33  
That's, that's the kind of professional segue you get your podcast, you get what you pay for out there, folks.

Diana Hechevarria  15:39  
So not paid for. I just want to make that clear. I'm not paying for it. whatsoever.

Lauren Kaufmann  15:51  
Jeff, I'm going into the trip. I'm doing

Diana Hechevarria  15:55  
by the way, thank you for some pure intentions, because with my swipe left and not paid for it, it was pure intentions.

Jeff York  16:03  
Very pure intentions. So chocolate trip pours with a very deep mahogany color. Serious. Big going out with a bang podcast, chocolate chip,

Lauren Kaufmann  16:20  
everyone else went home.

Jeff York  16:25  
The conference is long gone. But not distillation.

Brad  16:30  
Let's talk about Darden for a second. Okay. So my family has a deep history with the University of Virginia. My niece is there right now. Nice

Jeff York  16:37  
garden takes people from a very diverse array of backgrounds. I learned that when I was there, it's really cool. I think even you know, I think you can have a crappy undergrad GPA, go out and prove yourself in other ways. Absolutely good. But

Brad  16:51  
I'd love to go out there. I'd love to know, oh, my goodness, I'd love to go.

Jeff York  16:56  
eautiful Yeah, it's an amazing place. I could wax I will not wax about that. We could talk about all sorts of people Brad doesn't know. And more what were you presenting? Here? You were doing

Lauren Kaufmann  17:07  
a bar? Yes. Happy to. So on the on the shoulders of Lisa. I also do research on impact measurement and impact investing. So I have a paper under review now but recently published a short piece and impact entrepreneur that your listeners can find. That has to do with how impact investors conceptualize success versus underperformance. And where will they find this? It the magazine is called Impact entrepreneur?

Jeff York  17:37  
Oh, very cool. Yes. Link in the thing below there. Fabulous. Okay, so you're presenting that here? That was a different thing.

Lisa Heehenburger  17:44  
That was a different one. I

Lauren Kaufmann  17:45  
presented this last year last year at this conference. Yeah. So this was part of my dissertation research. I went out in the dark heart of COVID and interviewed 150 impact investors, really with my colleague and co author, Michael Brown, who's the head of research now at the Wharton ESG. Initiative. Okay. And our questions really were for impact investors, how do you define success? On impact, right? How do you define underperformance, we collected a fabulous treasure trove of examples. And what we find is that while in the domain of success, impact, investors have lots of stories ready to tell about success in impact terms and quantified impact terms. When we ask them about the domain of failure. They have a much harder time conceptualizing failure in terms of impact, they're much more likely to tell the story of failure in terms of financial performance. So let's say for example, Brad, you have a social enterprise making beer. Tell me what was the time that you felt that you were successful in making an

Brad  18:50  
investor when everybody walked out with a smile and whatever? Exactly satisfaction

Lauren Kaufmann  18:55  
event beneficiaries, we, you know, hired 60 decibels. We ran some end user surveys, we have some great data we can tell you. Okay, Brad, tell me about a time that you underperformed as an investor that that's actually

Brad  19:08  
an incredible question, because how do you measure that failure? Especially if you're still making money?

Lauren Kaufmann  19:15  
Exactly. And so the answer here would not be well, our customers didn't really like the October fast as much as we thought they are. The brain was blue during

Jeff York  19:26  
the brainwash, I think it's the only one that's amazing.

Lauren Kaufmann  19:29  
They're much more likely to say, well, the financials weren't as good as we thought they were going to be. So there's there's this real asymmetry.

Lisa Heehenburger  19:35  
But does that mean that they're not true impact investors? They're actually a real investor just normal investors are not really impact investors.

Lauren Kaufmann 19:44  
They think they're impact investors. The Global Impact Investing network thinks that their impact investors I think that they could be impacted. Right answer

Brad  19:56  
or they want to be know, they

Diana Hechevarria  19:58  
know that these are well meaning Is that perception everything? If I think I'm a boss, I'm a boss,

Lauren Kaufmann  20:03  
you are a boss. Thank you. Because I mean, that's definitely your boss, your

Diana Hechevarria  20:08  
bosses. They think their impact investors are they not?

Jeff York  20:16  
Listen to her

Diana Hechevarria  20:17  
no stop. But if they really think they are, and they're in this space, how do we as like, outside, you know, scientists investigating this phenomenon exactly. I don't want to tell them they're not because I'm gonna keep giving these

Lauren Kaufmann  20:32  
as asset owners Exactly. If I were a high net worth individual, which let the record show I'm not just so this poses a real challenge is asymmetry fine between impact success and underperformance poses a challenge for asset owners, because where are they to put their capital? Yeah, right. If I'm a high net worth individual, I really care about whatever we're connecting and consumers with the best beer of their life. How am I going to choose between Brad's startup and Jeff startup if they're not able to actualize impact performance in terms of impact? And that's what I care about. So I think this poses real challenges for the field. No, I

Diana Hechevarria  21:06  
actually, I agree with you 100%.

Lauren Kaufmann  21:08  
I mean, I'm investing in Brad, let's be

Diana Hechevarria  21:12  
saying, I'm with you, Jeff. I, I've known you for so long, but now you can ring your bell sitting here wearing

Lauren Kaufmann  21:16  
a blazer and a button down. Oh, yeah. So I'd

Brad  21:19  
love to know what surprised you. What are the takeaways that you found that you're like, Oh, my God, I didn't know this was

Diana Hechevarria  21:26  
a question. Well,

Lisa Heehenburger  21:28  
I mean, I heard your presentation today. And I was surprised because, you know, we have been teaching about the impact management project and about how, you know, the risk is assessed according to the different criteria that have been, you know, developed by 1000 different organizations that have come together, etc. And then in your presentation, you're saying, I interviewed 115 impact investors, and no one is using that.

Lauren Kaufmann  21:58  
One of them one impact investor.

Brad  22:02  
I'd like to think that I am an impacted.

Diana Hechevarria  22:04  
Was that you? Was that you that one? We've never we've never,

Brad  22:07  
ever talked. So I'd love to hear the takeaway, though.

Lauren Kaufmann  22:10  
Yeah, yeah. So the mandate of impact investing is that investors will measure their impact. So the components of impact we could think of as the return as well as the risk. And to date, the most thoughtful, widely established and diffused framework for thinking about impact risk is the impact management project, the imp. And so I asked impact investors in these conversations, do you think about risk? What kind of frameworks do you use? About half of them said something gestured toward the imp, but only one actually could name for me the nine dimensions of risk associated in the impact management project. So there are all of these tools and metrics, catalogs and frameworks available to impact investors, but the actual uptake is very limited at this point. And that was surprising to me. Yeah. Really interesting, actually.

Jeff York  23:00  
So how do you move forward, then? I mean, is it just like getting these folks to actually use these tools? Or did you delve into, like, why they don't use the tools,

Lauren Kaufmann  23:09  
they feel that their impact is too context dependent and specific to apply? To apply another kind of framework was usually the answer.

Brad  23:21  
But I would also say, though, that I realize, but you could specialize and then sure, run the tool. Right? So you could say, This is what I think. And this is my expertise. And now let's just add this up. What is the tool telling me? And I think that they're just skipping that step. And they may not know.

Lauren Kaufmann  23:41  
Well, there also is a concern about asking for too much information from portfolio companies, you know, portfolio companies are fledgling organizations, startup companies, in many cases and private markets. They're just trying to keep their company alive. Thank you very much, let alone do all of this additional Impact Reporting. To me, that's an excuse.

Brad  24:00  
By the way, meet me too many startups under my belt and impact as a focus is a total cop out.

Lisa Heehenburger  24:11  
Seriously, if you're an impact investor, and you're not trying to understand the impact of the organization that you're investing in, you're not really an impact

Diana Hechevarria  24:22  
investor who's trying to like you're greenwashing yourself. Thank you. Yes.

Jeff York  24:26  
All right. Well, there you go. I feel like good that. I mean, that's a pretty good insight to wrap up on if you're gonna be an impact investor, you AF I can't say it any better than that. I don't know what else I could say to that. Table of it. I feel like the bartender's backing up here.

Diana Hechevarria  24:46  
This is Corey. Corey is going home quite a few months ago.

Jeff York  24:49  
Yeah, Korea.

Diana Hechevarria  24:54  
Amazing. Oh, yeah. You want better beer. Thank you. I want to say thank you to you, because you've made this night beautiful. Thank you to all the service industry people in LA, you are overlooked and as a person to be in this industry. It's absolutely true. Like, y'all are the heart of this economy, the United States. Thank you. Yep.

Jeff York  25:21  
Cory, do you like dark beer? I do love dark. Would you like some chocolate trip? That would love to try? Really good. It's

Brad  25:29  
actually really good. It's really

Jeff York  25:30  
good, good, good. You can get yourself a cup, whatever you like. All right. Well, we're gonna give some chocolate chip to. Job, we'll be leaving that and I'm sure. We'll be getting some chocolate chip to Corey, the bartender, let's do a round round of outros for everybody.

Diana Hechevarria  25:52  
Can I ask a question? What's the one thing that I can take to my class? Or to my friends? From the work you do? Like, what is that? Like? If you can, like give me like that one liner? What is it?

Lisa Heehenburger  26:02  
And you're all looking at me?

Diana Hechevarria  26:04  
I'm not gonna you're

Jeff York  26:08  
a better question. Thank you for asking. You

Diana Hechevarria  26:10  
know, like, if there's one thing like I went to class after being here, what is it?

Brad  26:15  
I've got it all. I mean, I mean, I think we've taken action, whatever you think we can talk about these metrics, we can talk about all these other things. But if you've identified a problem, take action. Don't sit back, don't try to figure it out. Take Action, talk to your customers, talk to your stakeholders and figure it out.

Lisa Heehenburger  26:32  
I like that. No. And I think I mean, from your research, it was clear that if you are an impact investor, and you're not interested in impact, you're not you're not actually an impact investor. So really try to understand what is that impact on the beneficiaries? Know, how are you trying to make a change in what you're doing?

Brad  26:53  
Or on it that you're not an impact investor? As an investor? Yeah, exactly.

Jeff York  26:57  
That's okay. That's okay. You won't be as popular party. So

Diana Hechevarria  27:00  
that's okay.

Lauren Kaufmann  27:01  
Well, in this stuff does get complex realities of the world. And so as a business ethicist, I would have to say that my takeaway would be be clear about your values. Don't be afraid of identifying what your core values are, and letting those lead in your practice. I love that. How about you

Diana Hechevarria  27:18  
walk the walk and talk the talk? Wow, amen. Girl.

Jeff York  27:21  
I actually I think, well, I'll take that into classes, trying to encourage more of my students in my my renewable energy and sustainability, entrepreneurship classes to think about pursuing a PhD. Oh, my God, Colorado's.

Brad  27:37  
Oh, my God, I'm looking for that. Or that whiskey right now

Diana Hechevarria  27:41  
is in the VIP room won't be there.

Jeff York  27:44  
If I could be allowed to finish my thought. What was cool here, because I haven't been to this conference in like four years. Even in those four years, there's been this massive influx of young scholars, they're here. So many people I didn't know, doing such incredible work, really doing things they care about and making traction. And I, we've seen through this conference over the years, publishing the very best journals, making great careers at great schools, having great lives and doing research they cared about. And I think that's really inspiring and important. So

Diana Hechevarria  28:18  
Oh, well. I mean, how did we meet? I don't remember. We were like, a trailblazers, but we were like, what?

Jeff York  28:27  
There was not a support network quite like yes, yeah. Yeah. So I feel

Diana Hechevarria  28:31  
very blessed to be here with you all today during your stories, just seeing this, because makes me kind of want to cry. And it does, because back then it was like, I was like, a woman and a sea of men. And now I see all these women. I'm like, oh, yeah, hey.

Jeff York  28:48  
We have interviewed one male professor at this conference. And it wasn't like we were trying to do that, right. There's just like, all the people we saw doing the most interesting work. All the people we saw just happen to be women. It was it was really inspiring. Yeah.

Diana Hechevarria  29:02  
Very cool. Very cool.

Jeff York  29:04  
Yep. All right. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Everyone.

Diana Hechevarria  29:10  
Thank you all for what you do and keep doing it.

Jeff York  29:14  
Oh, we're gonna try. We'll see. That's up Derek Miller. So we did an

Brad  29:21  
actual insight over prediction and prediction. Prediction is Eric is going to keep paying for this podcast.

Jeff York  29:28  
Yeah. All right. So I'm Jeff York, Research Director of the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship at the University of Colorado School of Business join as always, and

Brad  29:38  
I am Brad Warner. I am my head is spinning actually. It's because it's because of the amazing people today that I do I tease about research. I teased about it because I'm looking for action action in the streets in a sense, and I love it that you're all history dedicated your life Making the world a better place. And I think that that is fabulous. So thank you.

Jeff York  30:03  
Awesome. And thank you all so much for joining us. So anyway, we hope you've enjoyed our road trip to USC. We certainly had perhaps too much at this point. We're gonna let it go there and we'll see you back in lovely Boulder, Colorado. Thanks, Jeff. All right, cheers.

Stefani H  30:21  
We hope you enjoyed this episode of Creative Distillation recorded live on location at the 19th Annual Social Entrepreneurship Conference hosted by USC Marshall School of Business. For more information on Lauren Kaufmann, visit her faculty page at To learn more about Lisa Hehenburger on her faculty page at That's E-S-A-D-E. We've had a blast making new friends at the 19th annual social entrepreneurship conference at USC. And we hope you enjoyed these conversations as well. We look forward to seeing where the road takes Creative Distillation next. We'd love to hear your feedback and ideas email us at, and please be sure to cubscribe to Creative Distillation wherever you get your podcasts. The Creative Distillation podcast is made possible by the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship at the University of Colorado Boulder's Leeds School of Business. For more information, please visit That's D-E-M-ING and click the Creative Distillation link. Creative Distillation is produced by Joel Davis at Analog Digital Arts. Our theme music is "Whiskey Before Breakfast" performed by your humble hosts, Brad and Jeff. Thanks for listening. We'll see you back here for another episode of Creative Distillation. If you've enjoyed this episode, you may also enjoy Leeds Business Insights, check them out at