Creative Distillation - Transcript for Episode 43: Sophie Bacq (Indiana) & Tom Lumpkin (Oklahoma) on Civic Wealth Creation (LA Road Trip!)
Stefani H 0:06
Welcome to another episode of Creative Distillation. Your hosts Jeff and Brad from the University of Colorado Boulder is Leeds School of Business discuss entrepreneurship research while enjoying fine craft beverages. Previously on Creative Distillation, Brad and Jeff sat down at HiDef Brewing in downtown Los Angeles. Speaking with Jill Kickul and Sophie Bacq, co-presenters of the 19th Annual Social Entrepreneurship Conference at USC. This time, we're once again at HiDef speaking with Sophie Bacq, Associate Professor of Social Entrepreneurship at Indiana University's Kelley School of Business, and Tom Lumpkin, Professor Emeritus of Entrepreneurship from Oklahoma University, and a senior visiting research associate at the University of Tennessee Knoxville. They're just one of many productive collaborations that result from entrepreneurship conferences. Since meeting over a decade ago, they've collaborated on several papers, which they discuss here, including their most recent work communities at a nexus of entrepreneurship and societal impact a cross disciplinary literature review, the paper looks at the Civic wealth created by socialization, and how entrepreneurship and business plays a critical role in bringing together communities to bring about social change. Enjoy and cheers!
Welcome to Creative Distillation where we distill entrepreneurship research into actionable insights. I'm your host, Jeff York, research director at the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship at the Leeds School of Business at the University of Colorado in Boulder, however, I'm not in Boulder Today I am in LA. I love it. All right, with my co host,
Brad Warner, I'm the faculty director at the Center for Entrepreneurship. But Jeff, you know me, I'm an entrepreneur, I know
you brag to me, and here we are still. So people are listening to podcast alternative you add plus my mom, you know, I hope you're enjoying our adventures in LA. We're out here for the social entrepreneurship Research Conference. And we're gonna be talking to a lot of amazing scholars and I'm very excited to welcome our guests for this episode. First of all, if we have Professor Emeritus Tom Lumpkin from the University of Oklahoma, who is also a senior visiting research associate at the University of Tennessee in Knoxville. Welcome, Tom.
Tom Lumpkin 2:30
Thanks very much. Listening to you makes me want to talk to my radio voice.
We also have Professor Sophie buck, the University of Indiana. Indiana University. I always do that. I don't know why see the University of Indiana. It's very embarrassing. I apologize. Now what
a beautiful campus. I'm just thinking about Indiana. That it Bloomington is incredible. It is right.
Like garden at the entrance. I always end up wandering around there when I'm trying to find my way back to the hotel on campus. And I usually don't find it very easily. Because I've come from downtown anyway. Yeah. Okay. So we're really excited to have you guys on here. You guys have written a lot together. And I think I was present the first time that you presented a paper in public, I think it was at the NYU version of this conference so many years ago. So tell us a little bit how did you meet and come to like, write papers together?
Tom Lumpkin 3:27
Oh, gosh, that's story that goes back to the NYU conference. As a matter of fact, that was probably the first you meet there. Yeah, that's where we met. So we were
just talking about like on the last episode about how this conference, has, over the years fostered so many productive relationships between co authors and PhD students and mentors, and just people and friends really like people that support each other throughout the year. So So So you met there, and you just answered
Tom Lumpkin 3:54
nine? Wow. Yeah. So Sophie, I guess, was still a doctoral student.
Sophie Bacq 3:59
I didn't have much of North American network. I was doing my PhD in Belgium and Jill has invited me to spend one year that turned into two years.
Probably Okay, so I'm sorry. No worries.
Sophie Bacq 4:13
So 2009 It wasn't actually my first social entrepreneurship conference. I didn't wait you hadn't moved to New York yet. I didn't know many North American scholars and you to work because you know, the word is quite prominent. And well read across the Atlantic. And then I I saw Tom I kind of recognize your name. I think Lemkin but I thought you looked very approachable. And yeah.
You were giving a keynote talk.
Tom Lumpkin 4:45
A year after, like a year after.
I remember I met you because I remember you giving that keynote and then talking to you afterwards and things like that. I knew your work and strategy and things you've done before and ownership, but I didn't know that. I think actually Tom like I'm Got bearish, are they by Thank you moving over and coming and talking at the social entrepreneurship research conference at the time gave it a lot of legitimacy. I truly believe that.
Tom Lumpkin 5:10
Well, thank you. You know, it was just one of those things that I that I loved as soon as I heard about it. And so I started working on it as soon as I could. I actually did a couple of keynotes at the NYU conference as a one of them. I did do with Sofia, we, that was one of the very first times we rolled out Yeah, the idea of civic wealth creation, and that became an eight year long project. And before we actually turned it into a paper, it's also publishes a
paper. Right, right. So so let's talk a little bit more about that, because Brad has no idea what you're
okay, so I have never been to an academic conference. I have to go so I was picturing yourself.
Like, I'm gonna walk up to the bar. Would you like to write a paper with me? I want to see how many how many collaborators I can get for papers?
Sophie Bacq 6:04
That's a good question. I think it speaks to networking, conferences and networking in a very positive way, not a dirty word. I know you didn't mean it. But sometimes people think of networking as being instrumental and I don't think it should be at all. So it's about building relationships. And so I may have heard Tom's and Shoko Crasto, your doctoral student, I remember was from Syracuse University was was with you, that project you had together? I may have been at their presentation, I thought it was interesting. And we just started chatting. And so you don't, you don't actually start chatting about let's collaborate, do you want to work with me, especially when you're a senior professor, you have this demand 20 times a day, likely and say now, and so it wasn't gonna
say to me? So
first is that we share this interest for discovering an answer to a problem. Exactly, yeah,
Tom Lumpkin 6:56
really, is that it's just visiting and starting to talk about stuff. In fact, there was a seed of this paper that, you know, we took eight years that began because of the first thing we wrote together was actually a paper about what can social entrepreneurship learn from Family Business Research. And that became sort of a basis for this conversation that turned into civic wealth creation. So there's this kind of classic three circle model and family business. And we kept morphing it and working on it and talking about it, it turned in with three circle model and this other
thing applied somewhere else. Yeah. Social Welfare. I should talk a little bit about that. Like, what do you mean? Like, I'm an entrepreneur, I'm just listening to saying like, that sounds cool.
Tom Lumpkin 7:39
So it's civic wealth creation. So and the idea is that there are multiple stakeholders? Well, gosh, that's not the place to start.
Sophie Bacq 7:49
Well, it's a broader conceptualization of wealth. That's thinking of wealth creation, because we we started from the premise that entrepreneurship creates wealth. And usually you think of financial wealth and monetary.
When you say, Well, for most people, that's
Sophie Bacq 8:07
material possessions. And our ideas that studying social entrepreneurship, quite at length and in depth, we thought it was actually a lot of non economic wealth that's being created. And so that's the first invitation is to think of entrepreneurship as the source of creation of more than economy. Well, yeah. Yeah, value but at a at a at a broader level. So value. And we can tie more into that because I think you're right to do the parallel between value and wealth. Value is usually embedded in a business model that an entrepreneur would think of, and create, like, yeah,
I don't know if I actually agree with that. I think that it's more than that. Right? It goes back to what we talked about before about what's inside and what's valuable.
Right, let's tell us
about Vanguard. But I am talking about, we could easily define monetary. Right helped me to find this other concept that you're discussing.
Tom Lumpkin 9:08
Well, so one thing I would say just about the point you're on, is when you think about wealth and value, think about stocks and flows. Okay? Wealth is like stocks. Yep, value creation and value creation process is sort of like flows. And so you may start with a stock or wealth that is an investment. And then there's a value creation process, the flow, and that creates more news. Wow. Of
Well, we really are in a brewery doesn't really nice emphasis here.
Can you provide an example of what you're talking about, about this kind of the spiraling value?
Tom Lumpkin 9:42
I'll put into the context of the stuff that we've been writing about simply wealth creation. So there are artists scattered about they're not a group, remember, just in a community and there is a underutilized a building? Right, that is abandoned, right? Right. So There's, there's this sort of asset of these artists, there's an asset of this building, that's kind of the stock the wealth that's already there. And it is not financial and traditional sense, right? Yeah. And so what a social entrepreneur does is bring together a coalition of people who gathers these artists ducks into a group finds who owns the building arranges it, for it to be rehabilitated, so that the artists can now have a place to do their work and display it. So it's a collaboration there. And so there's a there's a value creation process that turns the artist into a coalition of a community of artists, and turns the building into a useful building. And that's the value creation process. And then at the end of that they have more wealth than they had at the beginning, when they were just an empty building, right? Just scattered artists, and it's
creating civic wealth, because and correct me if I'm wrong and saying this, it's the spillover effect that happens to the broader set of stakeholders around that.
Tom Lumpkin 11:00
Right, it is a spillover effect. That's, that's a good way to think about it. So in our model, just to get into that, we say the Civic wealth consists of financial wealth, or economic wealth, plus social wealth plus communal wealth. And so you know, each of these together, synergistically come together to create this thing that we're calling civic wealth. And we like spill overs. And it is, it's kind of an all boats rise model, right? There's intentionality around making the community better. Yes, right. And we use the term civic very explicitly to specify sort of somewhere between a neighborhood and a region. So it's not society at large, but it's extra organizational, it's bigger than an organization. Okay. And it just, there's a strong emphasis, in fact, the people that we talk to one of the things that they that people in other areas, public administration and nonprofits, one of the things that they latch on to quite often is this notion of wealth is something more than money in material possessions. Right. And that's part of what, what we're talking about.
So my question to you is a person that spent a lifetime studying this theory, what has been, if you kind of look back at the sum of all the work, what has been most surprising to you it? Was there an aha moment where you said, Oh, my God, this is incredible.
Tom Lumpkin 12:22
Yeah. Well, you know, in this business that we're in, right, right, we are always being asked to and expected to and, and automatically do think about theory, right? What are the theories that are underlying, you know, these,
almost the opposite of what you're addressing? Yeah.
Tom Lumpkin 12:41
But But he asked me what my aha moment was here. And it was this and that was, there is in stakeholder theory, a long standing notion, that value is created at the intersection of diverse people coming together, bringing something new to the table, sort of an edge concept, biological concept, that, that there's greater productivity at the place where these two diverse species meet. Right. And so that was a new interpreted not a new interpretation. But it was an it was kind of an under considered aspect of stakeholder theory. So the theory does it
in a totally different way. And let me let me ask you if this actually relates to what you're doing, and maybe the insight when I first started in business, I always thought that the power of my intellect, my wallet, I could get things done. And I have learned that diverse teams create better outcomes by far. I mean, is that the bottom line?
Tom Lumpkin 13:37
Yeah, well, it is it is the bottom line.
Sophie Bacq 13:42
So that's a good insight.
That's when we have a good insight.
Tom Lumpkin 13:46
In fact, there's research to support that heterogeneous teams are more productive in the long run.
We see that in our classrooms.
first started, that wasn't common sense.
What you're talking about is more stakeholders, which is different than diverse teams. I mean,
Sophie Bacq 14:02
yes, but it's the same idea. Okay. And I think, I think to bring all of this together, I think the surprising or at least the the idea that I'm most attached to is the one of collaboration that you mentioned earlier, I mean, collaboration, you can collaborate at the team level different individuals, you can you can collaborate at the Civic level with different actors that have a shared intention, and want to create something together elevates, you know, the well being of all of them and create what we call civic wealth. And this idea of collaboration is critical for you know, the efforts that a lot of social entrepreneurs are engaged in. And from a theory standpoint, that I go back to non theory, it's important because we used to think of social entrepreneurship, mostly in terms of the individuals right you your wallet, your values, the heroic acts are right, or the organization that you create, right? It's a firm because we're in business school, so we study business. Sure. And so now this idea of, you know, civic level, higher level of analysis As community collaboration is really critical, and we are walking the talk these days, as we talk to a lot of professors in public administration, as Tom mentioned, political economies, nonprofit management, scholars to kind of understand how we can actually, you know, create Well, scholarly, well, intellectual wealth by joining forces, because there's a lot of insights when you want to do social change that reside outside of the business school. Right? You're not discovering, but at least like
Unknown Speaker 15:32
know, you know, utilizing it. Yeah. And spending the
Sophie Bacq 15:35
time to actually talk to these people, because we're not usually incentivized to talk so much beyond those
know that just the opposite often.
Sophie Bacq 15:43
That's that's an insight. Not well.
Alright, say it again, Sophie.
Tom Lumpkin 15:55
So, so I just sort of an extension to that, please. Yes, I would, I would say that another important insight was this idea that unless those people who are being helped, are actually engaged in the process of thinking of the solutions, buying into the solutions and implementing the solutions, then it simply just doesn't work as well.
Sorry, I jumped the gun. There's a really important point, though.
Tom Lumpkin 16:24
There's an awful lot of Sodor, you know, social action, which is, you know, people with money and ideas dropped.
Yeah. colonialism and economic rights
as well start a fire with your money in the backyard.
Tom Lumpkin 16:39
And so this collaboration worse talking about has got to include the people that are being held. We don't even like referring to them as beneficiaries. Right. Right. It's their partners, their, their their
creators, though is it goes beyond social entrepreneurship, is I think that your focus has been on social entrepreneurship. But coming from a person who believe it or not, I'm an introverts and introverts. Yeah. That's a whole nother podcast, we can talk about thinking about the world of introverts that don't want to collaborate. Right? Yeah. But collaboration would allow them to grow their ideas or give them better chances for success. I think that this is a much bigger topic than than just your primary focus. Not that it's not important, very, very important. But I think it relates to a lot of other things as well.
But I love about what you guys are doing. And I think I saw that first presentation. Yes, I just read your recent JBB paper 2020. I don't know of anyone else in entrepreneurship literature, that maybe I'm just missing it. I mean, it's a lot people write a lot. It's hard to keep up with the literature I tried. But I think this is why some of the doctoral students we were talking about earlier are so like very interested in what you're doing. As a co authoring team, you have consistently maintain this focus on this idea of collective and community civic wealth creation. And that is just not what business schools usually talk about. At all. How's it been for you? Like, Have you have you had like, colleagues do like
three schools titles are in His name?
Unknown Speaker 18:21
A little farther.
Tom Lumpkin 18:24
So, you know, I think it took a long time for it to catch fire to tell you the truth. Yeah, we used to say the paper was rejected and all the best journals.
And all the fighters.
Tom Lumpkin 18:40
And so, you know, it was, it was a it was a learning thing. You know, this whole idea. We're talking about something beyond the the organism, you know, management scholars, sure, yeah. individuals, teams and organizations, your organization.
This is very upsetting to people. No, seriously. I mean, you know, like, people are very wedded to their ontologies and their beliefs about how the world is. Yeah, well,
Tom Lumpkin 19:05
actually, one of the rejection said, this is a journal about organizations. What are you doing here? Yeah.
Are organizations in your mind? Yeah, not Oh, it's about
Yeah, if you're missing people off, you're doing the right thing?
Tom Lumpkin 19:17
Well, yeah. It hasn't played so. Well. Yeah.
That's okay. But that's what I like about it is like, it's pushing us to think Well, I mean, I mean, there's very, very few people in management that talk about Aaron Ostrom, for example. And that's kind of crazy to me because he's a Nobel Laureate. And and I mean, I remember right before she sadly passed away we were we had her lined up to come speak at CU I was so excited. I had been working with the folks in Indiana and and it was just such a depressing thing to me that I never got to see her speak but of course, watch videos and read all our work and, and I think, you know, she didn't really talk about this isness she has talked about solving these common pool resource problems. But I think you and a few other scholars are starting to talk about like, hey, you know, this is what you were saying earlier just resonated with me so much times, like if if the people that have the problems in the communities that you're trying to solve, are not bought into your solution, and even more importantly, aren't part of coming up with the solution. First of all, you probably make a crappy solution anyway. So would you agree with me that I agree, yes, I agree. That's true. But you also agree that like, that's not obvious to most people that try to do these things.
Okay, I don't even want to go into that after a couple of beers, because I'm just going to blast everyone. Now. What I like about this discussion, though, is I love talking to people that are being bold, that are going against the trend, and you're not doing the easy lift. And that to me, is what we need. And we can all cut up 1000 academics that are just going the easy route. And you two are not, and I greatly appreciate you for that.
Sophie Bacq 21:03
Well, thank you for hearing the accolades, so to speak from outside of the Business School is encouraging. Yeah, but at the same time, we want to push so much of the great energy and talent that resides within the business, particularly entrepreneurship departments and groups of scholars to actually figure this out how entrepreneurship and business can be playing a critical role in social change. Because that's, that's entrepreneurship to start with. That's how we started that. That's where we'll end, I think, but this is yeah, this is taking this an interesting journey. And so to echo what you said about the JVP, so that's a recent German business venturing, very cool literature review published last summer, it reviews the types and roles of communities because this is a theme of this kind of La podcast enterprise. So
Sophie Bacq 22:01
so types and roles of communities, when we speak about entrepreneurship and social change, right? So not community, I mean, communities, so a bit quit as you can look at it in different ways. But when we talk about entrepreneurship and social change, or societal impact, which is our interest, and the interest of everybody at the social entrepreneurship conference,
Unknown Speaker 22:20
should be the society, our society as well, by the way, yeah.
Sophie Bacq 22:23
Which is captured in social change. Yeah. Oh, society. Yeah, I know. Well, I hope we have more than two at tomorrow, maybe? That's right. Yeah, no, you're right. So um, we, we find that they're actually different types of communities. So we think of community and this is what Christina, the owner of this great brewery was mentioning, community as a as a community of locality, geography, community community of place. But we also uncovered that in the literature, at least, and then I'll give you practical insights, maybe for social entrepreneurs out there, their communities of identity, maybe that's all the four year old that I tried to find her husband live as we occurred in the Christina, earlier, communities of fate. So you can think of all communities that are facing natural disasters or war or like a circumstances that are imposed upon them, communities that interests communities of practice. So when we, when we think of community and speak of community, for scholars and practitioners, we think it's critical to to actually define what we mean, what types of community and then the roles, the role that Tom mentioned earlier, being engaged in the solution is critical. So oftentimes, for social entrepreneurship practice and scholarship communities are beneficiaries, right? Oh, they're receive the service, you know, portraying a caricatures received the service of the homeless, social venture that you create it, but they can as well be agents of change, they can be direct partners in the solution. And so we didn't find as many instances in the literature, but we think there was so much more to be done both in practice and also by any duck students or, you know, more advanced scholars that are interested in the topic. So
Unknown Speaker 24:11
So are you hopeful for society?
Sophie Bacq 24:13
Yeah, well, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um, you're hopeful one. Are you Tom?
Tom Lumpkin 24:18
Yes, I am. But, you know, in the conversation of, you know, are the solutions going to be at the village or at the state by state? I'm a village guy.
Unknown Speaker 24:28
Yeah. You're at the right table. Yeah.
Tom Lumpkin 24:31
That, you know, and that's part of I think, what what what we've zeroed in on is that, you know, there's a lot of noise in the media and that there's other sorts of levels, so to speak. But I think there's some wonderful things going on at the local level and in community and with civic aims. Right, right. And we picked civic very specifically because of the idea of it. It was suggestive of, you know, having a concern and responsibility for those other people that were in community. The T word, right? Yeah. It's not as neutral as the word community yet. You know, because of that, because people do care about their community and they are trying to invest in I mean, the whole there's a whole thing going on with impact investing these days. Oh, sure. about it, trying to invest in communities, where can we act at the local level? To make things happen?
Community, though, is not just this one specific thing. They're overlapping? Yeah. Well, that's, that's really interesting. Yeah, the paper
Tom Lumpkin 25:29
that Sophia was talking about, that's part of what was what what we found, and what's important. So, you know, scholars have challenges. Community is a little bit of a throwaway word, research, you know, but what we did was we sort of zeroed in on this idea of types and roles. And if you kind of look at the type, they are in the look at the role they play in that intersection, then you can really sort of have a typology sort of speak or, or, you know, a constellation of, of communities that that you can research more effectively. And, yeah, it's, it's these different types, but it's also the different roles that they play. And some of those roles again, and again. So if you mentioned we didn't see as many but we saw some amazing examples of communities, as you know, prime movers actors, making entrepreneurial things happen in their communities for the sake of societal impact, right. And I think that kind of thing
about the creation of new communities out of this, that in a sense that, we find out that we have a commonality that we didn't realize before.
Sophie Bacq 26:34
So we've seen that, for instance, in communities of faith, so you have an entire community that's hates by your natural disaster, for action to happen, oftentimes, there needs to be maybe a spin off of that community that centers around a co identity or like find each other. You were just mentioning, and that is what will spurred the entrepreneur action. And they're really their their motivation to do something together. So you're right, that it's overlapping. And there could be creation, sub communities emerges or
like loving things. Yeah. What's really, really cool. Yeah, I love that, actually.
Tom Lumpkin 27:08
Yeah, it is, in fact, part of what we saw was that one of the ways that community solve some of these problems are addressed some of these problems is they create sub communities in the suit communities have more agency, and they have, you know, the ability to sort of tackle a problem that the bigger community can't. And so there's quite a lot of, you know, evolution within, within these community groups.
This has been really, really fascinating for me. Thank you both. Jeff. I think that this is great. I mean, I
wow, you guys have like really impressed the kindest words he's ever. Because I
think it's a different scale than I think we still need to get to the micro scale, which I think you're talking about. Sure. Um, it's also about understanding that you can't dictate solutions. I think that that resonates all over the place. Right. And I, a lot of people would say that that's a new idea. I think all of us sitting here would say that. That's common sense. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, it's bringing to the forefront and getting people to think about it differently. I mean, I think it's so easy for our students and for nascent entrepreneurs, and, and for us, as scholars did, like, just say, Well, you know, let's just think about this at the, I mean, so Sophia, and I and cast of 1000s wrote a recent paper, we're, I think we were talking about this idea, like, it's very easy to focus on the individual entrepreneur. And we love entrepreneurs, that's we do on this podcast, we talk to entrepreneurs, we talk the scars, but when you're talking about broader impact, you may be able to look in and visualize and say, Hey, are you happy or not, you know, you can measure that pretty easily, least as much as you can for any human being. He says your business working? Sure. Okay. Now we talked about organization age, organization continuing exists, that's great. And then we talked earlier, like about, like the idea of measuring impact beyond that. But then when you get to like building, civic, wealth creation, I love that term civic because I think civility is a big part of what we have lost, not just in the United States. But globally, we have lost our idea of civic contributions to building community to help each other and to protect each other and to shield each other. And to build a life worth living. I think that's, I don't know, I just commend you for even using that term. work and doing behind it. I think that's really important. And I think people don't think about that very much. And certainly, you know, not to throw any field under the bus but if we were to go to let's throw
Unknown Speaker 29:39
some fields under the
field under so so I'm not going to do that. Having a conference like this where these ideas can percolate. Exactly. Thank you, Sophie and get to the surface. I think it's really important and you guys are making a lot of progress and you are like, like I said, I know numerous doctoral students are who were like, oh my god, this is the future. I'm just like, wow, I gotta catch up. I read there a few years ago, I haven't read this new one. And it was really cool to talk to you guys about this. Thank you for having us. Did a good time. Again, we're at high def queering. Still here, and I don't know that we'll make it out of here on time to make it a conference. I hope we will. So again, we have our guest today were Professor Tom Lumpkin Professor Emeritus at University of Oklahoma, a visiting researcher at University of Tennessee Knoxville, and also professor Sophie Buck who is at the Kelley School of Business at Indiana University. I got outro All right. And the paper we were talking about why there weren't but the main paper we're talking about Sophie bucks lead author author with Christina Hurtado Is that correct? And Tompkins communities at the nexus of entrepreneurship and societal impact across disciplinary literature review, which is in the Journal of Business mentoring, which having been a former editor in Sofia, the current ad or
Tom Lumpkin 31:02
not a JV anyway,
it's a fine journal, and it really is good. I'm Jeff York, research director at the W Center for Entrepreneurship. I am
Brad Warner. It has been a pleasure speaking with you both today. Enjoying la cheers to you.
Cheers. We love it. All right, more to come.
Stefani H 31:28
We hope you enjoyed this episode of Creative Distillation, recorded live on location at HiDef Brewing in downtown Los Angeles. Learn more and order merch at hidefbrewing.com. Learn more about Jill Kickul on her faculty page at marshall.usc.edu. You'll find more about Sophie Bacq on her faculty page at kelly.iu.edu. We'd love to hear your feedback and ideas email us at CDpodcast@colorado.edu, and please be sure to subscribe to Creative Distillation wherever you get your podcasts. The Creative Distillation podcast is made possible by the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship at the University of Colorado Boulder's Leeds School of Business. For more information, please visit deming.colorado.edu. That's d-e-m-i-n-g and click the Creative Distillation link. Creative Distillation is produced by Joel Davis at Analog Digital Arts. Our theme music is "Whiskey Before Breakfast" performed by your humble hosts, Brad and Jeff. Thanks for listening! We'll see you back here for the next round of Creative Distillation. If you've enjoyed this episode, you may also enjoy Leeds Business Insights, check them out at leeds.ly/lbipodcast.