Stefani H 0:06
Welcome to another episode of Creative Distillation. Your hosts Jeff and Brad from the University of Colorado boulders leads School of Business discuss entrepreneurship research while enjoying fine craft beverages. Previously on Creative Distillation, Brad and Jeff conduct field research at Wild provisions beer project in Boulder, Colorado. Speaking with cellar person and CU grad Weston ring about his path to brewing the experimental brewing approach at Wild provisions and why they focus on just two types of beer. This time, we're still at Wild provisions getting to know the Deming Center team. We're a small crew with a big vision for the entrepreneurship program at see us lead School of Business. Listen to learn how we can work together. Enjoy and cheers.
Jeff 0:55
Welcome to Creative Distillation where we distill entrepreneurship research into actionable insights, but not today. I am Jeff York, the research director of the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship at the University of Colorado at Boulder Leeds School of Business joined as always by
Brad 1:11
Hey, Jeff, I'm Brad Warner. I'm with the Deming center also but I'm an entrepreneur. We are coming today from the Deming. Happy Hour. We
Jeff 1:19
are live.
Brad 1:20
We have a fabulous guest who I have the privilege to work with just about every day.
Jeff 1:25
I know you are lucky. Yeah.
Betsy Klein 1:28
Hello, hello. Happy to be here.
Jeff 1:31
That's a we are so stoked to have you with us. We actually like so. So the whole context here. We're getting ready to have this happy hour and we do this our director Eric Miller pulls the scare for a happy hour at the Deming center. And Brad and I just said, Hey, let's just do a podcast there over at Wild provisions, which is this amazing brewery we're at. And we went into the Deming series staff and we said hey guys, we're just gonna do a live podcast. They all looked at us like what the hell that went over. So I went over so swimmingly, people were just excited. Thrilled to be here. But Betsy was like, it's cool. I'm there. No problem. Yeah. These other people. We're going to talk to you. They looked. They looked a little nervous. Betsy looks fine.
Betsy Klein 2:08
I had to process it. I had to process it for a few seconds. Good to go.
Jeff 2:12
But now you had rescue guys. Now you were drinking the dark lager? Yes. What are your thoughts on the dark lager here at well provisions?
Betsy Klein 2:20
So I'm not a big beer drinker. But if I do drink beer, it's a dark beer. Yeah, ganas,
Jeff 2:26
a really dark lager specter that cheers. Yes. That's why I'm gonna be careful choosing these little samplers. I spelled them all over our previous guests. Well, so Betsy, you have not been to the Deming center that long. We were fortunate enough to have you join us, I
Unknown Speaker 2:40
guess a little over a year ago.
Jeff 2:41
Is that right? Last February last February. Okay. Yeah. So we're reasonably gonna have an anniversary party and a couple we will have an anniversary party. I gotta tell you, we were so stoked to have you join us because you used to work with a previous guest of ours, Chuck Easley, he of the Negroni fame, very popular episode. But what brought you to Boulder first of all, and then what do you do here at the Deming, sir.
Betsy Klein 3:03
So yes, I worked with Chuck easily at Stanford. He was easily one of my favorite faculty that I worked
Jeff 3:11
for bear in the awful faculty here. No. Yeah.
Betsy Klein 3:15
It's awesome. loved working with them. But then you came here. Yeah. So I was working at Stamford out in the bay area for about seven years working with Chuck and all the fabulous faculty out there. And my husband and I have a couple of daughters that live here in Boulder. And we were in the middle of COVID in Palo Alto and said, What the heck, we're spending a fortune, and where everything shut down and just kind of went on a walk one day and said, we're moving to Boulder. Life is short, and we want to live near our girls. So we moved out here. I worked for Stanford remotely for a number of months, but live very close to campus. I just decided I gotta get back on campus are working with students. And I was so fortunate.
Jeff 4:01
And I think we, we were so fortunate,
Betsy Klein 4:04
and very, very grateful to be given the opportunity. So no regrets. No, none, not even a second. And I love my time in California at Stanford on a second regret Lemonnier.
Jeff 4:16
So we were like, super stoked to have you apply, like, what are you been doing? So I know you and I worked together last year. And I just want to say, Betsy joined the Deming center, and help us with our programs has been amazing. But more recently, you've been collaborating with Brad So why don't you guys talk a little about your collaboration, what you're up to.
Betsy Klein 4:33
So when I came on to the Deming center, my role was to manage all of our graduate programming, mostly extracurricular programming, we've got some super cool opportunities for our MBA students to dip their toe in venture capital, and in consulting and other areas, but I was so fortunate to get to be on that Elon, a really cool credit bearing class called New Venture launch. And I worked with Jeff with you last year amazing job. Brad is taken over this year. And it's an awesome class where student ventures get to take their ideas and we go through this semester and the goal is to spin out a company at the end.
Jeff 5:22
credit bearing accelerator. Yeah, that's the that's the vision is sponsored by the intuitive foundation amazing foundation that is put up funding for this because, frankly, when we used to offer this class are deemed to be like, Well, wait a minute, I'm paying you to teach a class where more than half the students are from other disciplines and aren't paying us. Like, yeah, it's cool. She's like, not really, but we'll let you do it. All right. Well, Betsy, we really appreciate you join us. We will let you get back to the happy hour. We basically just grabbing these poor people that are trying to enjoy themselves and making them come talk to us. Well, they will be talking to us anyway. But not with microphones.
Betsy Klein 5:57
So this is my first time on a podcast. I'm having a ball.
Jeff 5:59
Yeah, awesome. Good. Very cool. Thanks. We could do the whole episode about Betsy woking with you. actionable insight. If you move to Boulder, Colorado and you have good experience, apply for a job at the Deming center because we would love to have you. Honestly Betsy, we were just thrilled to have you apply. And we're just even more thrilled to have you working with us. It's been fantastic. Thank you guys
Betsy Klein 6:20
love working with you as well. Thank you.
Brad 6:24
So Jeff and I are sitting with Maddie lights, one of my favorite people in the world. And I'm also someone I'm fortunate to work with the damning Senator Maddie, Welcome to Creative Distillation.
Maddie Light 6:33
Thank you. Thank you. How's it going?
Brad 6:35
It's going great. I noticed that I have a big beer and you have Yeah, and why is that? Well, because
Jeff 6:40
I already drank a full year. Okay. Maddie has you know, you're drinking a pumpkin beer and I cannot have a full one of it.
What are you drink in the pump action? Yeah. Nice. Maddie. Cheers to you. pumpkin beer aficionado?
Brad 6:53
I can't tell us her.
Jeff 6:54
I like her. But I'm really Yeah, we are so stoked to have you here. I think you are actually the most seasoned giving staff member we're going to be talking to you today. So you work primarily with undergraduates? What do you do with these people when they come by the Hemmingsen? I say hey, I want to be an entrepreneur. What do you do?
Maddie Light 7:12
Great question. So there's a wide kind of range. Honestly, it goes from advisor to therapist, to startup.
Jeff 7:22
Nadia got this problem. And it's, it's just a friend of mine. It's not my problem. It's just
Maddie Light 7:27
crazy enough. I had one entire day from 12 to five, it was just an hour booked up every hour with like a therapy session.
Jeff 7:34
I totally believe that. So are these students like when you're talking about like working with them? Is it is it students? They're like trying to find their way and like they think they want to be involved in entrepreneurship, but they're not really sure. Like, what are you talking
Maddie Light 7:47
about? I would say primarily, it's students who like entrepreneurship know they have a passion for entrepreneurship and kind of want to find that community, you find a lot of students in Cu, who are kind of talking about the corporate world and all their classes are teaching them to you know, go into corporate That's right, find Deming to kind of find that other community and students that they feel comfortable with. That's which is wicked cool. And so a lot of students will come to me looking for a community looking for resources that'll connect them to more people that are like minded, kind of a variety of things.
Brad 8:17
So what do they do? They walk in and say, Hey, Maddie, I heard this isn't finance.
Jeff 8:25
Offering my Whoa, Brad's favorite professors are big friends with all the finance.
Brad 8:31
And I've had a life of finance. I love finance.
Jeff 8:35
It's kind of a rock star in the world of finance.
Brad 8:38
But so no. So tell me like, What is your average person that walks in that doesn't know anything about Deming? Are they nervous that they wandering in? Are they looking for community? Are they just what's what happens?
Maddie Light 8:49
Yeah, so I would say if we get students in their freshman and sophomore year, they're often looking for their community. They knew they came to see you because boulder was an incredible entrepreneurial ecosystem. And they saw us and they, you know, probably took them a while to walk through those doors. But once they did, they were so happy that they were there. And then once you see them one day, once they meet us, and all the other students in the area, they're there every single day, get rid of them. Yeah, they're everywhere.
Jeff 9:17
Essentially, remind you like, I mean, not to bring research into this non research podcast. But we do have a doctoral student who's following around entrepreneurs at the TechStars accelerator here in Boulder. And what he said, let's
Brad 9:29
actually talk real quick. I just following him around.
Jeff 9:33
Okay, he was conducting ethnographic research. And so here's what do you think about his mate? Like one of his findings is that like, yes, the resources, hooking them up with money and things like that, and teaching them how to pitch was good. But actually, they got more benefit of like, actually meeting other people that had the same problems they had than anything else. Do you see a similar thing with undergrads? I'm just curious. So I think it depends. I bet it's a community every time. Yeah,
Maddie Light 9:58
I think it depends what you're looking for. Okay,
Jeff 10:00
fair enough
Maddie Light 10:00
talk with Brad, you probably get a lot of really great advice once well, maybe, but someone who has as busy schedule, as Brad and has great knowledge is probably only going to meet with you once, maybe twice. But it makes sense community members, you're constantly up to uplifting each other, working together supporting each other on events, talking about it, you know, that kind of person, you're almost on the same level achieving the same thing. So like, I mean, so
Jeff 10:24
it's a peer to peer relationship, not like, I mean, it's helpful to talk to people who can be resource providers, people a lot of experience. Yeah, but having other peers.
Maddie Light 10:32
Yeah, I think ideally, it would be a combination of both. But when I had a business and undergrad, the thing that uplifted me was meeting the people who were doing the same thing. Without that community, I never would have gone anywhere.
Jeff 10:44
Awesome. actionable insight.
Brad 10:49
Yeah, actually, let's just leave it at that. If you're if you happen to be an undergraduate or any student at CU, you should probably come talk to Maddie at the Deming center. And if you're thinking about becoming a student, so you come talk to Maddie. And she's just awesome. Yeah, but I do think that sense of community is really important. So I agree, really, really important. And you can have someone that comes into damming, that's working on some new finance idea, and someone that would meet somebody like you that likes fashion, and they still end up collaborating in some sort or another, or at least supporting each other. Right? That's really cool.
Jeff 11:21
Cool, cool. Maddie, you are just consistently a person that uplifts me every time I talk to you, I really appreciate it. No, seriously. I know. I mean, I really do appreciate you just have awesome energy. You're just always positive. And I think you're the perfect person for this job. Cheers. Thanks so much for hanging out with us. All right, we have absconded another member of the Deming center. From their happy hour a good time to make them come talk to Brad and I. This is Stephanie Harrison, who is our marketing and operations manager at the Deming Center. Welcome, Stephanie.
Stefani H 11:55
Hi, thanks for having me.
Jeff 11:56
Did I get your title correctly? Yes, Stephanie is the person that is actually figuring out how to make you listen to Creative Distillation more I have
Brad 12:05
to tell you, though, her insights have been incredible. They're all gone from like 10 to 12 users, Jeff, or listener. Listeners, listen for up to 12.
Jeff 12:15
That's not true. We actually are having a big boost and is actually Stephanie's idea. If you like this year's format or this season's format of Creative Distillation. You had an idea of
Stefani H 12:25
what was. So try to get them to be 30 minute episodes by cutting them in half. I think that was freaking
Brad 12:30
okay. And think of the ask of telling or asking Jeff and I to say keep it to 30 minutes. Kidding, Joe? We're
Jeff 12:36
really good at that. Are we? Our producer Joel say you guys are so good at keeping it tight. Yeah. So Stephanie, you are the latest addition to the dimming center. How did you come to work here?
Stefani H 12:47
I met Eric, the executive director in South Africa on the program entrepreneurship and empowerment in South Africa. Awesome. And I connected with him on LinkedIn. And I saw his job post when he shared it and I applied it. Really well. I came from Florida.
Brad 13:05
How are you doing? Moving from Florida? How do you like working in Deming? And how do you like living in Colorado
Stefani H 13:09
working in person for me it was super valuable. And that was the whole reason to move to Colorado was to get to actually know my coworkers and know the team and be able to come up with creative ideas with people instead of in my own little personal bubble at my house. So you were working remotely your previous job. My last job was three years remote it started before the pandemic three years. And when the pandemic hit, it got a lot more challenging as all the outside things to do with people pretty much came to a standstill. Yes.
Jeff 13:44
Let me catch up to you. I've been taking them for hikes. As I recall, I've been taking
Stefani H 13:50
Leo for hikes. He's a 17 pound orange tabby, which I think must have some sort of main cone in him.
Brad 14:00
So what about your work of Deming, tell us how you what you do and how it's been going for you.
Stefani H 14:06
It's been going great getting to meet a lot of new people making lots of great connections. It's amazing to work for such a big company wherever that's an opportunity in so many places to grow. Marketing is my number one priority for the job I we got a lot of really cool things going on from startups and sandwiches to now what and just a whole bunch of different programs to connect our students with different resources and get them what they need. So
Brad 14:34
tell our 12 listeners, give us give us something give us something marketing. Why should they tell their friends to listen to Creative Distillation?
Stefani H 14:44
You should listen to Creative Distillation because it gives you insights on entrepreneurs on how they build their businesses. Have fun with Jeff and Brad with their beer samples. One learn about the latest entrepreneurial research and how it can help you
Jeff 15:00
actionable insight. If you want to be successful as an entrepreneur, you should listen to Creative Distillation. According to Stephanie Harrison. Yeah,
Brad 15:07
I think she said it better than me.
Jeff 15:10
She's way wiser than we are. Stephanie is so awesome to have you join us. My thoughts have definitely been with. And I've been totally remiss in telling you this and I apologize. I've just been swamped with all these crazy titles I have. It's true. I've really been thinking about you and your family and friends with all the horrible hurricane impact in Florida. Is everybody okay? Like
Stefani H 15:31
everyone is okay. We got very lucky the hurricane was initially predicted to land on mom's house
Jeff 15:42
picture over popping up. Oh, my God.
Stefani H 15:48
Yeah, that's terrifying here. And then as hurricanes almost always do it change direction right before landfall. somewhere else.
Brad 15:56
We wanted to thank you for all that you do? Absolutely. distillation, everything at the dining center? Absolutely. We're thrilled that you're here with
Jeff 16:03
us. Oh, my God, I this. This is gonna sound weird all podcast, Stephanie got an electronic sign installed outside the Deming center. And I can only imagine the bureaucratic nonsense you had to go through to get that thing installed. It's fantastic, though. It's really cool.
Stefani H 16:21
We got a lot of supporters at Leeds in the University of Colorado Boulder who really want to help us succeed. And it's fantastic to use those people and help us get better things and help provide for our students.
Jeff 16:33
Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for joining us, Jared. Thank you, Stephanie.
Brad 16:38
Jeff, we are really honored to be here by both of our great friends, but also the person that was behind allowing us to do this podcast. What was I thinking? Yeah, right. But Eric Mueller, the executive director of the Deming center, it is so fun to finally fricking be with you around a barrel.
Jeff 16:59
Absolutely. A very small barrel with beers balanced for curiously about Joe's microphones.
Brad 17:06
Things we do So Eric, welcome. Welcome. Thanks,
Erick Mueller 17:08
guys. You guys rock cheers. First of all.
Jeff 17:13
So yeah, so I remember, we were sitting in front of a cafe with all our dogs. I think we had all our dogs, maybe maybe one person didn't have their dog. And Eric was like, what would you guys actually be excited about doing? And I was listening to a lot of podcast. I was like, I would be excited doing a podcast where Brad and I hung out and drank. And Eric is
Brad 17:33
thinking I would go skiing
Jeff 17:37
like okay, so Eric. I mean, honestly, man is actually a really honor to have you here. We did do. We did have you on the podcast at one point then we do it. I forgot we did something with you. I
Brad 17:47
forgot. We roasted him a lot.
Jeff 17:48
We roasted him a lot on the podcast we get a lot of crap. So
Erick Mueller 17:52
you know I should start so one guy listens. Yeah, seriously, he's I think I'm the only other one is listening to every episode besides your mom's. So Oh, actual insight. So if
Jeff 18:02
you want to know what's actually happening, ask Eric because Brad has never actually listened to it.
Erick Mueller 18:09
So I gotta tell you guys this, this is an honor to see what this is actually about. Yeah, and clamorous isn't, it's exactly what I thought it's you guys drink a beer hanging out talking about stuff. But on a serious note back at you. This is an awesome effort to distill Yeah, research into meaningful, you know, insights,
Jeff 18:27
but not today. Here's the other What do we say to research bad? We say Not today. Thank you. We have no idea.
Brad 18:32
But I would say because of you. Here we are the number one podcast coming out of the University of Colorado. That's something to say. So it is. It's our moms and they're they're telling their friends.
Jeff 18:42
There's another one where they just play a dial tone. And we are kicking it's doing really well. Well,
Erick Mueller 18:48
I throw right back at you. You guys have way too much fun with this.
Jeff 18:50
Yeah. So it's interesting, because we did this, you know, honestly, because we were like trying to figure how do we highlight research at Colorado? And then how do we highlight all the amazing researchers we have coming through. And you and I were like, I felt like I was banging my head against the wall. I think this is actually sort of working.
Erick Mueller 19:06
I know it. Yeah. And
Jeff 19:08
I think you'll be proud of this. What's really cool is I don't think so far this season, and we're gonna break this up because we're getting ready to go do a big Creative Distillation roadtrip, but so far, we have not had anyone on the podcast is not a CEU faculty member or employee this
Erick Mueller 19:22
season. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. I
Brad 19:24
didn't know that. Yeah, it's actually super cool. And the other thing that that I know that you guys know about me, is that impact is important. And I know it's important to you, Eric, and how do you see CD making an impact? And then even in a larger scale? How do you see doming making the impact? And
Erick Mueller 19:42
it's a great question I think on two levels. One I think what you guys are doing and really props to both of you guys and getting an amazing guests. I enjoy it. I really do. You know, I'm obligated to listen to your podcast, you know, to my job description. But you know, it's been amazing to see the guests that you've had on and I really enjoyed, I have a blast listening to you guys to kind of riff on each other. I love the F bombs that Brad, you know, shares every time pumpkin beer comes up,
Brad 20:14
ya know?
Erick Mueller 20:16
There you go. And there's another one. But when you ask about impact, it's a great question. And I truly just admire how you take in research that the layperson has no idea what's going on, right, and distill it down into one or two things that are actually useful. Nobody else is doing that, that I can see
Jeff 20:35
is so much
Brad 20:36
more about research and helping the entrepreneur on the ground, but it's
Erick Mueller 20:39
about real impact. I mean, research for research sake, on one level is great in terms of thought leadership, but right how do we actually get to a level that, you know, an entrepreneur listening to this podcast, right, can say, hey, wow, that's awesome. I'm gonna try that tomorrow. Great. That's amazing. We do and Jeff, you lead, you know, awesome research here at CU. And it's about taking that and like, Who gives a damn, and how they actually apply that tomorrow. And then as a senator, it's all about how can we solve the world's problems? Yes. And we do that by teaching and research, right? So we teach over 2500 students a year, as you know, that this way of thinking, and how many research citations that we had over the years 1000s and 1000s of research, I don't
Jeff 21:23
even know, I mean, it just piles up all the time. It's incredible. And I mean, I really, Eric, I just want to say, this podcast certainly wouldn't exist without you. But I don't think our center would exist without you. And I just, you are the heart of entrepreneurship and lead school business. And it's really is an honor to have you on here. And thank you for all your support over the years and everything you've done. You know, I mean, one thing people don't realize I am an academic. I am a professor, I actually, I am. You're a rock star. And yes, I'm a total rock star. Seriously, though, Eric has been a stalwart of entrepreneurship here at CU. He's still CEO of his own active company. And he does this really add the love of impacting students lives. And he does have an amazing impact not just on students, like they're at the Leeds School, but around the world. You just heard Stephanie met him in South Africa. I mean, God, you guys, cause you guys were just in Israel.
Erick Mueller 22:19
Well, thanks for sharing those thoughts. You know, it's I mean, it's one one person on his team and you guys are core to that, along with Stephanie, Maddie. Betsy, the whole crew, right? So it's like Brian, Augie, right? There's all the dogs. Yes. All the puppies. So I have an idea for you guys. All right. And I want to pilot it a little bit here a little a little bit about a Creative Distillation podcast or an episode where we interview you guys. Oh my god. And I'll pilot it just a little bit here this question for each of you, Jesus. So Jeff for you two questions. What is your most favorite beer you've had on the podcast and 33 episodes God and two is what do you like most about leading this podcast?
Jeff 23:07
favorite beer of head on? quite honest and this is gonna sound like total BS but I may very well love the well provisions check Light Lager that we've had today. Of course it's today but the other one I'll go back to purely because I did actually enjoy this book purely because of the reaction it elicited from Brad was last Halloween. God where were we even Joel? I don't even remember where we were where it had to pump how the pumpkin beer with the weather cream on top? No wasn't Avery twisted pine twisted pines pumpkin beer with whipped cream on top because it made Brad like actually physically gag. I thought it was delicious. Whatever, most of these podcasts honestly. i This sounds like such bullshit. But I spending time with Brad actually, we've become much closer friends to this. And really Joel to we don't shout out enough to him. Joel is an amazing producer. The idea that we would be doing this, like, I mean, really you should see where we're literally you're seeing our beer with some microphones precariously Ballack about for them. And we just like go into places and we do this and we meet all sorts of amazing entrepreneurs in the community. And what I love about it is that and I love bringing in my research colleagues and seeing them like distill these things down and I love seeing Brad realize, hey, you know, not everyone, not every paper. I'm not saying that. But most of them have something real to contribute and really care passionate about and commercial. I think that's important. And really cool.
Erick Mueller 24:38
Awesome. And the beer interviewee can't go wrong in the beer so true to this podcast. Brad, your question is what has been your least favorite beer? And what do you hate most about this podcast?
Brad 24:51
It's totally epitomizes our x actually Jeff has already told you about my least favorite beer, anything with whipped cream are you A big one. For one of my most favorite beer is actually whiskey tasting though. Whiskey tasting Oh, God
Jeff 25:08
bolder, bolder distillery.
Brad 25:10
But I'm with you, Jeff, today's beer is great. My least favorite thing about this podcast is nothing. I came into this as a skeptic about academic research truthfully, right. You and I are both entrepreneurs. And I think that a lot of crazy things are going on in academia, written for 300 people, really, here's an insight, it needs to be sunny when you pitch to a VC or you that somebody spends their life. But there's actually some other social insights that I had never considered, right. We kind of go through our day and we do these things. And I think that's why Jeff and I are arguing and teasing each other and really having a great time. Plus a couple beers loosens up, that there are some true insights that come out of this podcast to think about, and you never know it. All. Right, so we're all learning every day. And that's the best part of this podcast for me. So there isn't a downside. It's all upside. Kudos to you, Eric. And Jeff, though, for being such great friends of mine as well. And
Jeff 26:08
Joel, too. So
Erick Mueller 26:10
dual. High five, you can't see us but we're giving a high five right now joke.
Jeff 26:14
So as a tiny tear of gratitude for each other drips. On the corner of our eyes, we will wrap up this special dimming center happy hour episode of Korean distillation. Eric Mueller, Executive Director of the Deming chef Andre, thank you for joining us, Eric. It's awesome to have your pleasure.
Erick Mueller 26:30
Cheers, guys. Cheers.
Jeff 26:32
All right. There's another episode of Korea distillation, the stealing entrepreneurial research into actionable insights. Thanks a lot for joining us. It's been awesome hope you got a little glance into the wonderful people we work with. And when we say the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship, we're not this sort of saying this big, monolithic Corporation. It's really just a handful of really great folks are trying to help students and entrepreneurs.
Brad 26:56
Yeah, shared values. Eric. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you. We're looking forward to talking to all of you next time.
Jeff 27:02
Awesome. Thanks a lot, Brad. Cheers, guys. Cheers.
Stefani H 27:05
We hope you enjoyed this episode of Creative Distillation recorded live on location at Wild provisions beer project in Boulder, Colorado. Learn more and order merch at wildprovisionsbeer.com. We'd love to hear your feedback and ideas, email us at CDpodcast@colorado.edu. And please be sure to Subscribe to Creative Distillation wherever you get your podcasts. The Creative Distillation podcast is made possible by the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship at the University of Colorado boulders LEED School of Business. For more information, please visit deming.colorado.edu. That's d-e-m-i-n-g and click the Creative Distillation link. Creative Distillation is produced by Joel Davis at Analog Digital Arts. Our theme music is "Whiskey Before Breakfast" performed by your humble hosts, Brad and Jeff. Thanks for listening. We'll see you back here next week for the next round of Creative Distillation if you've enjoyed this episode, you may also enjoy Leeds Business Insights, check them out at leeds.ly/lbipodcast.